"Be happy and healthy, be respectful, responsible, resilient, and be kind.”
Rob Glazer is an amazing serial entrepreneur, father of 3 teenagers, author of 5 very successful books, keynote speaker & one of the most distinguished disruptors to traditional workplace culture.
Topics are setting family values and living those out in a world where chaos rules, the importance of setting goals & business coaching principles applied to family.
“Be happy and healthy, be respectful, responsible, resilient, and be kind.” - Rob Glazer, Dadicated.com
Rob Glazer is a very successful business owner who built a $20 million global business recognised as a best place to work by Inc, Fortune, Forbes, Entrepreneur, the Boston Globe and Glassdoor. He is also a father to 3 and avid outdoors family man.
We discuss among other things how incorporating a value based system of doing family life is really not that different from running a successful organisation.
We talk about the incredible value of creating vision boards, setting goals and being accountable to those goals. We also talk about what it means to let your child find their independence and push past their fear of the unknown.
The most powerful takeaways for me as a dad were:
Book my keynote on building successful families and empowering dads here: https://about.me/philipphartmann
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Robert’s Books: https://www.robertglazer.com/book/
Philipp Hartmann (host):
RG: [00:00:37] Sure. Okay. Best advice I can give myself as a dad is I think is to meet my kids where they are not, you have to say, okay, got it. The best advice I could give myself as a dad is to meet my kids where they are.
PH: [00:00:53] Bingo. Okay. I'll go straight into it. Sure. Robert, thank you very much for being on. I'm super stoked to have you. I saw you as you know, in a session, I think it was acceleration partners and obviously yourself around leadership particularly in building a good culture or great culture for virtual teams, which is quite relevant at the moment. And very interesting for me. And you said something about families that I found really powerful. And, but could you just give a quick intro about yourself and then for business and then we go straight into. Robert the dad
RG: [00:01:31] sure. I am the founder and CEO of a company called Acceleration Partners. We are a global marketing agency that focuses on a specialty called affiliate marketing or partner marketing. We have about 170 people across six countries. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've started a few companies over the years, but have been doing and growing this one for about 13 years now, I've also started kind of writing on the side. I, there was a note that I started five years ago to my team on Fridays that started to get shared with lots of other leaders called Friday Forward. And now that reaches about 200,000 people each week and is the same title as a book that I'll be releasing on September 1st.
PH: [00:02:17] Very nice. I read that newsletter. Sometimes it's too long for me, but I once did.
RG: [00:02:23] So you must be just in a different Headspace.
PH: [00:02:26] It depends on how much space I have, right. The line moves.
RG: [00:02:30] I always find, I find it interesting each week. I get about. Five or six people, this is the best one ever. It has nothing to do with what I wrote it has to do with where they are that week or whatever.
[00:02:40] So yeah,
PH: [00:02:41] very much on the mind space. I mean, on that interesting. I'm doing a Parental Effectiveness Training Course.
[00:02:48]And it speaks..
RG: [00:02:49] I hope it's not graded or anything, I wouldn't take that.
PH: [00:02:52] Yeah, no, but where your line of acceptance is, but let me just please continue or finish off the your intro about yourself as a dad, because ultimately we're speaking about you as a dad,
RG: [00:03:03] Right. I'm also easily distracted. I also have ADD you'll learn that throughout the interview. So as do most people in EO, but so yeah, I have my wife, Rachel, and three children who are now 16, 14 and 11. Okay,
PH: [00:03:19] cool. And Okay. So there's a million points where we can obviously go from here. Entrepreneurship and children, Corona ADD, fishing, holidays.
RG: [00:03:28] Squirrel, squirrel. Yeah.
PH: [00:03:30] So where do you, do you want to share something , what's currently going on and. What occupies your mind and heart as a dad?
RG: [00:03:40] Yeah. Look, it's been a great couple months and, and, or difficult couple of months sort of with this, with everyone being in one place. You know, one of the things that's really important in our family tradition is overnight summer camp in New England, that's very culturally aligned to this part of the country. And my kids are usually gone for seven weeks and it's like their favorite time of the year. And, you know, they, they, they don't, they don't have that this year. We're usually traveling somewhere on July 4th. So it was, it was funny this weekend. They were like, we don't want to be here. And we're like, we weren't planning on being here. So yeah, it's been. You know, I think what it has shown more than anything. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges for parents is that I think similar to leaders is, is you need to, you need to parent each child differently as to their sort of needs as you need to manage people differently.
[00:04:34] I think if you just have your one style and your one program, it doesn't work. And unfortunately, You know, we've lost a lot of our tools in that war because when you're, when you're locked down and there's very limited set of things you can do, you know, it's hard to help them each, you know, have that time and the activities and the things that we know that they like to do.
[00:04:55] And, and, you know, it's, we, we kinda have to be. Together. It's just, it's, it's changed a lot of dynamics and, and given us far fewer tools to try to figure out, you know, how to, how to plan a schedule and the time that, that relates to each of them. I mean, they're very different on the introvert extrovert scale. They're different, how they want to spend their time. They're different ages. We've had to change a lot of longstanding kind of, we don't try not to have a lot of rules, but, but those so. I, it, it, I look, we've had like 90 dinners together and we've had some amazing time, but, but you know, they're not, they're not getting their space outside the family.
[00:05:35] And I think that's important too. Like one of my core values is self-reliance and I'm most happy when my kids are. Actually out there at camp and out there doing stuff and growing and learning. And, and I think it's kind of been this downside of all having to stay as a family unit is that they've not gotten to spread their wings that much in the last, in the last couple of months.
PH: [00:05:58] Yeah. And you're locked in with almost three, almost teenagers. So two and a half teenagers.
RG: [00:06:04] Yeah, the two are pretty easy. The third one is he's he's, he's been, he's been a lot of the difficulty. He, is that my wife, I'm actually naturally introverted. I think my wife's kind of ambivert the older, my. My, my daughter is the same as my wife and my middle son's more introverted. And my little guy is a raging extrovert. And I think in general, this has been the hardest on people who are very extroverted. They get their energy from being around other people. And, and I've, I've seen that across the board. So, I think it's disproportionately difficult for him.
[00:06:40] He's a kid who, when he's done with a playdate, he wants another playdate. And when am I going to play and, and just, you know, People aren't available and running, or everything has to be put together as a careful one-on-one, it's just, you can't go run and join and go over to someone's house. It's really like changed the whole nature of, of kind of free play. And, and that's been tough with him.
[00:06:59] PH: [00:06:59] Have you, have you made quarantine circles or? I know some people have like decided at the beginning of lockdown. Okay. We'll be. One social circle. And then there's two households that, that do interact. Have you done that or not?
RG: [00:07:12] No, we haven't because we both have family here. And and, and also there's just some social aspects of that. I don't think we have like the perfect, it would actually seem exclusionary in the circle that we're in to do that with one or two people a bunch of them. And then it also, that means we're not doing it with our family or. You know, my daughter has a boyfriend. There's different bubbles that can be PRCC.
PH: [00:07:37] The boyfriend that's a whole dynamic.
RG: [00:07:40] So it was kind of interesting. She did not see him for almost two months and it was winter and they were FaceTiming and I was like, W, why don't you go walk with him in the park or do something? And she actually thought it would be too hard to, to see him. And you know, this, this was like a whole generational thing. I'm like, I don't understand why you'd want to be on FaceTime when you guys could go ride a bike together and walk together. And so then she did start seeing him, but, but, you know, and they hang out and they sit in the backyard. I mean, I think it's, it's tough for them.
PH: [00:08:13] I mean, they, they like being forced into a long distance relationship being near distance. Amazing.
RG: [00:08:18] Being two miles from each other. Yeah. It's
PH: [00:08:21] mind blowing. I I want to go somewhere else. And that is that I ha I, I mean, I perceived your, your culture building workshop as extremely valuable for my site, for the company. And you already started now in, in the beginning of your, of your summary around Corona. How you apply leadership principles to family as well? I guess there is something there. Can you share some of the culture building stuff that you've shared in the workshop and is it applicable to family? So what can you say from experience with other dads and moms? Many moms listen here as well. How we can build good family culture derive from your learnings from business, because I know that you're very passionate.
RG: [00:09:05] Yeah. So I'm a big believer. I don't know if Gino Wickman's going to write the book, but we're an EOS traction company and we do some of the Gazelles and I think it's the same principles, like traction for family. Like what. What are your values? What are your goals? You know, where's accountability, do you have kind of meetings, you work on the planning, I've seen all those things be incredibly valuable. So, you know, to just to have the things at a high level, we, we set, we haven't been super successful at the family meeting, even though I would like to be, you know, now we've actually had 90 dinners together, which is incredible.
[00:09:39] Normally. Someone's coming. Someone's going there's practice. So-so in, in the fall and the spring and in the winter we’re a skiing family, and we just ski together and we have all that time in the car. So the family meetings, a piece that, that, that I would have liked to be better at, but we haven't. But so
PH: [00:09:56] what's the family meeting at dinner or set up
RG: [00:09:59] Yeah a lot of them do it again, just sort of that weekly meeting the cadence. And, and similar to how, how a company would have it. So we, we, we set value.
PH: [00:10:07] You have to explain that. Not everybody was in the workshop.
RG: [00:10:10] Oh, got it. Yeah. So, yeah. So, so similar to a company, you know, you would have, you would have values, you would have your mission, then you would have kind of your you know, I know there are couples that do quarterly off sites and you do your weekly kind of check in meeting very similar best practices to a company and an organization. So we set two of the things that we do that I really like as traditions is we did set values years ago. And we talk about them a lot and that's: be happy, be happy and healthy, be respectful, responsible, resilient, and be kind.
[00:10:44] And I, in the same way as the organization, we have a very values driven organization and I, and I believe that values take the place of a lot of rules. So particularly with everyone on top of each other, the last couple of months, you can find a lot of reasons to yell all the time.
[00:10:57] But, but generally I say, I try to really like. Get upset when the core value lines are crossed rather than having a lot of rules to really say to the kids, like, you know, my son it's been, we've been kind of like having X, everyone I know is having Xbox Wars because you know, that is the, that is the socialization right now for, for a lot of these kids in these group games is to be online and talk to their friends.
[00:11:20] And, and, you know, we've talked about that under the context of being healthy or getting outside is. Being healthy. So, it's less of a rule than a value. And, and we've also been really trying to teach the kids goal setting and something that I took from another EO member Fletcher and Mackenzie at a New Zealand years ago was we do for the last five years on January 1st, we've kind of built vision boards as a family for the year. We kind of take our goals. We cut a whole bunch of magazines, turn them into pictures and we all put them up in our room and then sort of revisit them at the end of each year. Everybody makes it,
PH: [00:11:55] I've done that before with my wife,
RG: [00:11:56] everyone do your own one. Everyone makes their own, everyone their own, wife and I made our one together the first year and it didn't work. We were like divide and conquer. And so then we did it, we did our own thing, her hers was very different than mine. And, and. Yeah, so I even take my business goals and put them on there and try to make any goal that we have a visual representation of it. So the kids can see it and they learn what it's like to go for it.
[00:12:21] And they have it in the room and we've had some strange stuff happen. I have a whole story about going to the Superbowl with my son and all this stuff he had had on his vision board. And but I really try to teach them goal setting at a young age. It's very powerful to put on, make visual.
PH: [00:12:36] We've done exactly the same. Literally like take magazines, surf magazines, house magazines, whatever holidays, and you know, and stick it on a, on a collage. And the funny thing is the stuff that I've put on my vision board has actually happened. Yeah. I was actually materialized. I don't know.
[00:12:53] Yeah. I mean, I believe in it a lot, a lot of it's materialized and what's interesting is I keep a line of the, my closet, the old ones I'll go back sometimes and maybe it's not that year, but I age it a year or two and there's numbers and stuff. And my son actually has a whole story years ago he had this whole thing on, I told this story at his bar mitzvah, but he had this whole thing about going to the super bowl and the pats made the super bowl that year and I left with my father-in-law. We couldn't get him a ticket. And then yeah. We were in the airport and we found a flight and the ticket, he ended up, he was 10 and he flew by himself to meet us. And he had, you know, he just cut out something unrelated with the words L I on some other part of his board.
RG: [00:13:33] And when we got back, we realized that a, he had had all this stuff from the super bowl up there that was like, happened. It was really weird. And then he and I had these LI tattoos that we got on the Superbowl and I went in his room and I saw it and I, I, I'm actually getting chilled right now. And I just like, he had this LI thing that he cut out of a Miller light because he, what he was trying to say, you know, the kids like this phrase lit, he was trying to cut that phrase out, but he overcut the T and he had this LI and we came back and there's this, you know, we both have these picture of these tattoos from the super bowl. We ended up getting on the news and the whole thing was just crazy.
PH: [00:14:07] Amazing. Yeah, that's crazy stuff.
RG: [00:14:10] So I tell them, put it, put it, put it out into the world and you know, might happen now this year, all their boards. They're like, what the hell we had all this travel and places we were going to go and all this stuff, I was like, just wait, maybe I'll look at it next year. So our, our, our boards this year are way off.
PH: [00:14:26] I mean, we'll get a serious bounds of the, yeah. When people start moving again, you know, that's, that's going to happen for sure. In any case because people do want to get out and not everybody wants to have FaceTime relationship
RG: [00:14:37] Let me share a story that's not mine, but, but, but since my daughter is about to get her license, I'm going to use this because I think it's a great example on, on values and not rules.
[00:14:47] So there was a, there was an, there was a guy being interviewed on a podcast. Who's an entrepreneur who has similar, like. Very values oriented family and, and his daughter, you know, got her license and was asking about a curfew and, and so right there's two ways to handle this, right? You could say, well, it's 11 o'clock and your penalty is X for not being back by 11 o'clock.
[00:15:10] And that's fine. I mean, that falls under, we have a lot of that stuff. Here's the. Here's the, here's the rule and here's the consequence. And you know, it's up to you, like no yelling or screaming, but instead he said to her, Hey, well, you know, you, you know, you and your, your mom and I are just gonna worry. A lot, you know, that you're not home. We're probably not going to go to sleep till you get home. So, you know, why don't you pick a time that you think is, is, is reasonable. And, you know, he was thinking 11 and she said 10 30 and was home by 10 15. So it was a great case where he just actually, you know, explained. Why that was important to her, sort of the value of that.
[00:15:43] They care about her and instead of the rule he got a better outcome. And I think there are a lot of those. I mean, you were actually, you know, we were talking about before we were joking, like my daughter and her, her boyfriend she'll kill me if she hears this. But, you know, she was like, well, can I, can I go in his house?
[00:15:59] Or I'm like, look, you've got to decide, you know, how to handle this, understanding that. You know, if you do that and he has it, you're potentially bringing it into our family. Like I'm, I'm not going to tell you the rule. Like you need to use your judgment and know that. And I actually think that had a bigger impact on her than saying, no, you can't.
PH: [00:16:21] Yeah, of course I did the same with the spot on the other thing, do you. Does that, did you buddy's son? I take it. Did he communicate the time 10, 15, or did he shoot?
RG: [00:16:33] So she picked a daughter, so she, maybe this wouldn't work on a son, but she picked the time. So,
PH: [00:16:39] but did she communicate it or did she just, yeah,
RG: [00:16:42] she said, he said, so what time do you think you're going to be home? And not only did she pick a time that was earlier than he would have given her, but then she was earlier on that too. Yeah. Yeah. So. Overreached on two accounts and negotiation technique and better outcome. In other words, never say, never say the first number. Yeah. Well it goes, or like we talk about this a lot in our company. What's the why? Right. I mean, in trying to, I mean, there, there, there are some times when my 11 year old just doesn't want to hear the rules, but it, instead of saying, because we said, so, you know, we said, look, because we've read the articles and it, you know, all the experts say that playing more than this on technology a day is not healthy.
[00:17:21] And, and we, you know, we're trying to explain the why, because no one ever likes it because it's my rule or that look, we have to have rules, but the rules sort of sit under our core values. One of my favorite moments as a parent was when one of my, my middle son's had his teacher parent conference and we went in there and she gave us the writeup and she had used four out of our five family core values, like words in the writeup describing my son.
[00:17:47] And I was like, Yes, it did something did something right there.
PH: [00:17:54] How do you guys how do you guys, as, as parents, because that's so interesting. I mean, you decide these core values or values and it makes sense to lead by values and virtues, of course. Because the roots aren't random and it's much more important to empower a child. In order to help them make good decisions on a decent foundation, rather than just, you know, follow the rules because I say so, but how do you and your wife conflict? So if there's a dis If there's a disagreement in, let's say, I don't know, your daughter wants to go to a sort of nightclub because she's bit out first party and you know, probably kids will be drinking or whatever, and you say she can go.
[00:18:35] He, she says she can't go. Okay. Maybe without drinking anyways. How do you? How do you guys come to a conclusion? Do you do it in front of the kids? And do they know they can be different opinions and you come to a conclusion together, maybe even including the daughter. Do you do it alone? Do you do it? Not at all of the care of the kids. This is your domain. How do you do that?
RG: [00:18:58] If a kid is smart, then they'll shop for the opinion that they're looking for, you know, without telling us at the same time. But I thought, you know, I mean, I think it's a little bit of all my wife, my wife are generally on, on the same page.
[00:19:12] We, we were parented very differently almost opposite ends of the spectrum. And I would say we really try to, to, to, to meet in the middle. So occasionally the discussion will unravel in front of them, but we're generally on the same page about, about those bigger things. And we'll, you know, try to have that discussion outside of there. If one of us knows that the other look, I'm not gonna, I'm going to ask this happens, but if one of us knows that the other already weighed in we really try not to contradict or, or overrule that other person, but we're all human. It happens to hear it. You know, you might repeat, wait, wait, mom said you could go.
[00:19:51] Like, you know, and then, and then mom hears that. Like, I think these things all happen, but, but we really try to have a unified front and not undermine each other. And, look, we have very similar value sets. So I think when we're going back to these same decisions we understand our kids were very self-aware about each of them.
[00:20:11] There are some things that I would say yes to one that I would say no to the other, because they're, they're very different. And I, and I know that and, and I think that helps us to sort of apply those values. You know, 80% of the time we would give the same answer. Yeah.
PH: [00:20:26] Yeah. I mean, both is both. And so, I mean, I've had the other guests very interesting.
[00:20:31] I mean, obviously a lot of people say you have to stand in a United front, as parents. Funny, I told you I'm doing the P T course at the mum. The first thing she said today was it's a myth that parents have to always have a United front. Okay, interesting. I'm going to hear what she says. It's going to be an eight weeks course.
[00:20:49]Another dad I had on the show Arthur Gillis, you know Arthur Gillis,
RG: [00:20:53] sounds familiar, but no,
PH: [00:20:55] yeah, he’s a mega interesting entrepreneur. He founded Protea Hotel group, but it went from one hotel to, at the end, he had 16,000 employees and he sold it to a big hotel group. And what he did. Fairly interesting setup. He, second wife brought children into the marriage as well, and he had some already, so they ended up with five kids and from day one back on culture, because they knew that there were two very different family cultures. Being blended now he calls it, a blended family is set up and they actually hired a counselor or family, I don't know, psychiatrist or family counselor. And whenever they couldn't agree on a certain topic and he actually used the example of the, of the nightclub. They would call it a counselor. They had them on call and he would come in and he relates everything back to business.
[00:21:50] So he said, you know, it's, it's like a company, there's a board of advisors. And then I called the advisor and he, or she has an opinion and, and she helps us resolve it in a better, more constructive way. And I found it so powerful, but he said was, his wife said you can go to the, to the nightclub or the party.
[00:22:08] And he said, Absolutely not, there's no way. And so they fought it out together with the counselor and what it did was so the, the outcome was anyways, Arthur would pick up his daughter no matter what time. Okay. Even if it's five o'clock in the morning, but that's fine. The only condition she can go, the only condition is he would pick up personally. Okay. So for him, that was enough peace of mind that
RG: [00:22:35] you wanted to inspect, yeah.
[00:22:38] PH: [00:22:38] And she's like, she knows he's going to pick her up at five. She won't be totally drunken and sneak into bed or whatever. The, I don't know what the concern was, but that, that was the outcome. And what I found so powerful about this, and it's, it's a lot about culture.
[00:22:51]And family and culture and, and, and he relates it back into business again. He said, well, you know, the kids, what the kids learned from that is that we can have different opinions, but conflict can be very constructive. So the daughter learned that he was against the decision. And then they had a decent, constructive conversation, and then he said, okay, fine under these conditions, I can go with this. I find that's a very powerful lesson.
RG: [00:23:18] Yeah. And a unified front in some ways just models, groups, think. And conformity, rather than saying, you have to, if you think about a management team, it should be healthy disagreement all the time. You don't want everyone to agree.
[00:23:31] You're going to miss. You know, a weakness. And I think my wife and I come at it from the opposite spectrums, there are times when there are times when, you know, I think her, her lense is more important because I will miss the, the, you know, empathy side. And, and sometimes, you know, on the other side of the kids need to be pushed to do something a little bit.
[00:23:51] There's a little less empathy needed, but that, that check and balance is, is helpful. And I think, yeah, you want to see the kids, you have your own opinions. Here's how you, here's how you come to an agreement. And I think the main thing similar to an organization is, you know, you can disagree, but, but not disrespect each other, right. You don't. I think if they see disagreement and discussion, you're modeling one thing. If they see kind of disrespecting and overruling, then you're modeling something very, very different. Hmm.
PH: [00:24:25] Yeah. Another thing that goes in line with this is to criticize the, the behavior, but not the person
RG: [00:24:33] I'm very big on that. I've noticed that the younger. Kid that doesn't discern that as much, because I'm very careful on that. Like, you know, that, that you know, we've had some issues of, of, of veracity sometimes with his stories and, and, you know, to say, look, w when you, when, when you do that or you represent that, that's what I said I'm not going to believe you, or that, you know, that's not the truth. Not that you are a liar, but we've had to point out a lot with him lately that like, that's not what I said. And you know, you're not going to get a lot of credibility when you, you know, tell, tell mommy that that's what I said, because that was not what I said. That is, that is your interpretation of what you wanted me to say.
PH: [00:25:13] Is he just being very creative or his, why is that?
RG: [00:25:17] He, he is a w it's a power struggle. He is he okay. You know, he's going to run some company. I always say there are a lot of kids. I have a niece like this too, where he's going to be wildly successful doing something someday, but we just may not survive the next five years because he wants to do it on his time when he wants to do it and, and, and there's very much just a power struggle with, with him. That I don't have. We don't have,
PH: [00:25:42] how do you deal with that? I mean, for you, you're an entrepreneur and you like, you know, obviously driven, you build a decent company. I don't even know how you, but like it's diff like you'll have to stand back sometimes when you exert you're full energy towards that situation, so to speak. So how do you do that?
[00:26:03] RG: [00:26:03] I mean, this is where everything is in a bubble, right? This is where the power thing is, has been a struggle the last couple of months, like he's actually someone who really needs structure. It needs school and responds very well to structure outside of it being delivered by my wife and I so I, I'm very much trying to focus on giving him control and understanding, you know, the, the, the cause and effect of things and great.
[00:26:35] You can have that hour, but if you go over that hour, here's, what's going to happen now. It goes over what happens. And then the whole thing's unfair. But I, there, there was something I heard years ago and God, I hope this is true, or else I need a totally different approach, but it, it said, you know, sometimes it can take 10 years to know if your kids were, were listening to you, you know, or what you did had an impact where like these principles that we keep trying to repeat again, respectfulness responsibility, accountability, like that's really important. And it's like, Hey, you can have this freedom, but, but like there's, there's behaviors and consequences, so here's, what's going to happen when, you know, you, you know, violate this and, and, and it's hard to get someone like that to understand that those are his choices that he's making, that's causing it.
[00:27:20] It's not what we're doing, but we're repeating this over and over because I just think that that's a really critical life lesson. Like you do not want to be going around as an adult, you know, saying that the world's doing everything to you and, and that, to me, just, it crosses on a core value. So I'm just, I'm willing to sort of lie down on that line and I think we, we get a little more bloodied and beat up around that line because that is a core value thing that I think is essential that I want my kids to, to have, I do not want them to go out in the world, you know, with a lack of control, believing that, you know, things are happening to them versus that their actions matter.
PH: [00:28:00] At the same time, failing repeatedly builds more resilience. I
RG: [00:28:05] might be getting, might be getting more resilient, but look, I'm I'm I'll tell you I am not ready for them. Yeah. I am openly split on this, because I also believe, you know, how's that working for you. If you do the same thing 100 times, and it doesn't work, then clearly you need a new approach.
[00:28:22] But, but if you believe that that's a key sort of, you know, moralistic line in the sand that you don't want to move, then those forces are sort of you know, prevailing counter prevailing winds. And, and I struggled with that. I mean, we do it. Do we just throw out the whole approach and try a different playbook?
[00:28:39] What I will say it was really interesting is that, you know, my, my first
PH: [00:28:43] Sorry Robert, yeah. Sorry. There's some metal or something you keep on banging some.
RG: [00:28:48] Yeah, I hit the shelf. Sorry.
PH: [00:28:50] Okay. It keeps on that's on the track. I can't remove it.
RG: [00:28:54] No, no, no problem.
PH: [00:28:55] Sorry.
RG: [00:28:56] I, we talked about this earlier, but I, I, you know, I,I think there's some parents who just have the same playbook, right. Or just kids are going to do X, Y, and Z. They're going to do these sports. They're going to do these programs are going to do this, like irrespective of what they're interested in and they're going to go to this school. And I, you know, I think one thing that's been interesting for us is like the playbook that worked for our first two kids is almost like we need to throw it out and have a totally different playbook for, for the third kid. And I'm always really impressed when you see parents who cause some, you know, maybe went to some private school and they're like, our kids are just going to go to this private school. And I see others who say, well, you know, your oldest was at this school, the middle's at private school and the youngest public school. Why did you make that choice? And they say that was really the choice for the middle child. Like they, they wanted to do it. It was their learning. Like it just, the friend group was different, like able to really like, apply, like getting what they need rather than just sort of this uniform system.
[00:29:59] And you know, I probably thought I was a better parent for the first two kids cause is easier, but, but whatever, we need a new, we had to fundamentally have a different playbook and I think that's similar to leadership like our, or managing a team, like one person needs something that's different. And you're going to have to figure out how to adjust your approach to, to, to get the best out of them.
PH: [00:30:24] Are you able to truly individualize or give these. Kids truly individualized attention as a dad, because I struggled sometimes with that, especially with, because my kids are all at the same age pretty much. Yeah.
RG: [00:30:37] You're in a different book
[00:30:37] between often.
PH: [00:30:39] Yeah. But I mean, they're not so far apart, the first two, at least, you know, I mean, you, you, you want to teach your kids outside of your own bias I guess that's what she's saying and make decisions that are for them and not unified blanket, but are you able to parent individualized
RG: [00:30:57] I try? I think that's one of the most important things to me. I, the, the, the, my overall mantra as a, as a parent. So there's some principles. My kids is you can be anything that you desire as long as you're willing to do what's required. So I actually think that a lot of parents are too far on one of the spectrums. One of these spectrums, they are. You know, you, you can be anything and do anything with no accountability or understanding of the hard work. Right. So, so, Oh yeah, you want to, you can do that. Like, but, but, but not the reality of the world and that this is where you have all these kids.
[00:31:29] Who've been helicopter parented who are all depressed and seeing psychologists at 25 because their parents told them they could be everything. They can do everything and it was easy. And then you have the other side where people say, Oh, you can't. No, you can't do that. You can never make the NBA. You can never do this you can never do otherwise. Yeah.
PH: [00:31:44] That's not good. Do you, do you, do you have them check in on the accountability?
RG: [00:31:49] Yeah. Or, or more, you know, if you want to be a professional basketball player, this is what it needs to look like at seven or eight, or these are the hours that you do. I mean, this is actually what would be involved.
[00:32:01] So I like to present the, like, no, I'm not telling them they can't do it. But, but I think it's important that they are not on the track to do that. If they really believe that that's what they, that's what they want to do. Yeah.
PH: [00:32:12] Yeah. But do you hold them accountable? So if I want to be a professional basketball
RG: [00:32:17] , no, I'm not ,I'm not I'm, I'm actually, it would be a mistake for me to hold it accountable because it's not my it's not my dream or wish. And I think that that takes away intrinsic motivation. I'm just, I'm just constantly trying to point out, like by what my daughter really wants her license next week. And she knows her parallel parking, but she hasn't been doing it.
[00:32:36] And so I'll put it out. You know, Chloe, you told me you really want your license. But, yeah, I really haven't asked me to go do the parking with you. I'm just, I'm pointing that out. Like, I, I, I feel like it's my job to point out the cause and effect to
PH: [00:32:47] BMW, can park itself
RG: [00:32:49] not to be the, not to be the motivation for them, but, but back to the other comment you said, and
[00:32:57] here's where I've found that I'm the best parent. So at the intersection of what I do well, my core values and what's important to them and trying to meet each of them there like, I have ADHD, I can't pay attention. Like I. Back to school night. Like not my thing, they're not there, but like I let my wife go to it.
[00:33:17] I actually have given myself permission. I couldn't sit through a class when I was in school. I can't sit through a recorded video of what the kids are going to learn for the year. And I've just been like, that's okay. You know what? I'll go take them hiking, or we'll do this. Or when we want to go do the training for the thing, I'll go run with them.
[00:33:32] Like I, I do much better about the things that I'm passionate about trying to figure out what they're interested in and, and, and where we can intersect. I think I've had to give myself permission as a father to realize, like, there's some things like I'm just not good at, I've never liked in my life. It's going to be hard for me to, I'm very authentic, to sort of fake it with them.
[00:33:52] So, so show up and do a really good job for the things that I do well and, and sort of take the guilt away from some of the stuff that I don't, which is a lot of the, seen weaknesses. I have across all aspects of my life.
[00:34:07] PH: [00:34:07] Mm that's a gold nugget you just said giving yourself permission, permission to not having to do the things that you're not good at, even though it might just be in your mind. Yeah, not failing at those, but therefore doubling down on your strengths.
[00:34:24] RG: [00:34:24] Right. So if they want to practice for something and they want to get better, I love practicing, but I'll sit there and I'll develop the system with them or whatever. It's like watching a four hour rehearsal. Like I can't sit through it.
[00:34:37] I just can't, I've never been able to do that as much as I want to. They will not have my full attention you know, for something like that. So I've tried to be honest, they know that my middle son is pretty funny. It's sometimes like he started talking, he's like, I know you're not paying attention. I'm like, yeah, you gotta, I, I don't switch very, he just knows I don't switch very well. And so I'll say, yeah, like, wait, wait until I'm done with this. And then let me switch and let me give you my attention because I started answering you, but you're right. I haven't left the thing that I'm already doing. He calls me out on it a lot. I'm actually a lot more aware of it because I now see his awareness of it and I don't want him to think I'm not listening to him.
PH: [00:35:22] Yeah, that's powerful. Hey, Robert, do you want to share some stuff where I haven't gone yet? Because I don't know. Maybe there's some amazing learnings or experiences that you've had that led to insights or something that you want to share, as a dad.
RG: [00:35:37] Yeah. You know, I. To, to one of those examples before, like I love travel. I love going to new places. I think it's a powerful experience and metaphor for getting kids out of their comfort zone, pointing out the cultural differences, the things that, you know, we accept as norms, the things that are different. So we talk about that a lot. I'm also, I'm big on doing stuff with my kids that pushes them out of their comfort zone and I, as long as they are safe you know, I, I don't mind them being uncomfortable. And I think that's different from a lot of parents these days. And, and, and sort of the methodology the last 10 years. So we've gotten a lot of that through travel and adventure and doing things like rope courses.
[00:36:19]There was a story years ago, my son and I were doing this ropes course. And I dunno if you have these yet, but they're these new systems. They're pretty awesome. It's like there's two tracks and there's two clips and you can't. Yeah. Like the way the lock works, one has to be locked if it's unlocked so you can basically go through any of these courses. It's kind of like skiing. They have green, blue, and black, and you can go through them and you can do the whole thing yourself because you can't get hurt. Like you put one on the thing you go over and when you get to the other side, you put one on the tree and that unclips the one off the rope.
[00:36:55] So we were, we did a green and then we were doing a blue and you were zip lining and. I think we were like two thirds of the way through the course. And it was this very uphill, tightrope walk, and he got about two thirds of the way done. And I actually got to the platform and I, and I, I took a picture of him on this one and I actually like, sort of captured the moment that he kind of broke.
[00:37:20] You could see it. And I didn't mean to, I just, I took the picture and he was just exhausted and he was like, I, I can't, I can't get up. I can't do it. Like I I'm, I'm scared and he, and he's fully like clipped in. So it's all, it's all mental. You actually can't, you know, get hurt. And he, he, he starts burst into tears and, and he'd been great. And I was on the flip side and everyone's kind of looking at me like, go get your kid, you know, and help and help him. And I was like, but you got this. And he was like, I don't. And. You know, I just, I talked to him for a minute or two. I was like, let's calm down. I was like, you're going to get this at any, any, and he got himself going, he got to the top and look, he was tired and exhausted. And, but the next time we were at that course, he like flew through and took all the other kids on it. And his confidence was, was through the roof. And I tell that story when I tell the story about the super bowl, because part of the only way he could get to the Superbowl was, and he was kind of a shy kid at that age was to fly four and a half hours by himself at the first, for the first time when he was 11 years old. And this was three months after that incident. And I'm pretty convinced that, you know, that was a turning point for him. I had never seen him scared or nervous again, you know, after that moment. And if you had taken a poll at the tree place of like, should this guy get his kid or not get his kid at the time, I'm sure every parent would have been like, go get your kid, but I that's the stuff. I think that we're where we're not causing some short-term discomfort from long-term gain.
[00:38:56] PH: [00:38:56] Yeah, that's a powerful one. So you said if they, if they, you don't mind them being uncomfortable for a long-term game, as long as they're safe, that's, that's very true. Yeah. And by the way, you shouldn't have gotten, because everybody has an opinion, but you know, it's their opinion. People can do that. And I mean, it taught him the lesson that he can actually manage them, that he can actually put through with it. And it becomes a metaphor for, for future decisions or developing some grit. And by the way, it goes into your value of building resilience.
[00:39:29] RG: [00:39:29] Yeah. I have a personal core, personal core value of self-reliance. So like, I know a lot of people are happy when their kids need them. Like, I am generally happier helping my kids not need me. Like, I, I think our job is to develop from. Yeah. People don't move from manager to coach. Like I'm, I'm excited about the coaching phase. To me, the manager phase is sort of a necessity based on age, but, but, and a lot of people don't get out of that phase. They build this codependency that they need. So, yeah. If you asked any of my kids right now and they say, w what's the first answer they say, I want to go to my friend's house. Can you, can you give me a ride? My first answer to all of them right now is why don't you ride your bike cause then you can go there and then you can come home when you want.
[00:40:10] And we only have one car and you know, they're used to it at this point. And, and so I, I think it's, I was super independent as a kid. I think that that has that has, that has helped me. You know, we talked earlier about being the kid of a, of an entrepreneur and where you, where you, Oh, no, I'm not.
[00:40:29] No, no. So, so, so, so I mean, this is pretty interesting. You can take this. My parents in 30 years, each, I think had one job each and my brother, sister, and I all run our own companies. So it's a very,
[00:40:42] PH: [00:40:42] I don't know how you do it. I mean, my dad worked at, sorry, at Siemens,
[00:40:46] RG: [00:40:46] but look, there's a weird flip flop. I think that
[00:40:48] PH: [00:40:48] thirty years,
[00:40:48] RG: [00:40:48] I think you'll find that a lot of people I know who had entrepreneurial parents, you know, the last generation and they lived through the ups and downs, they went and got jobs that had tenure or had partner track or just were security oriented. So it's interesting how it flips and flops.
[00:41:04] But someone said to me a week ago in an interview, do you hope your kids are entrepreneurs? And I said, That's an interesting question. I think entrepreneurial-ism a little bit of a disease and I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish it on someone who does not have the qualities. However, I think there's some aspects of being an entrepreneur that I have tried to instill in all of them, which is, which is about being solution oriented, being creative, understand they all understand basic economics. They all can explain to you a lemonade stand of revenue and profit and they've run little businesses.
[00:41:36] PH: [00:41:36] How did you implement that? Revenue and profit. And I spoke to Warren a lot about that. Yeah,
[00:41:42] RG: [00:41:42] I talk about it all the time with them.
[00:41:44] They, you know, and they had,
[00:41:45] PH: [00:41:45] from what age?
[00:41:46] RG: [00:41:46] Young I, my daughter had an awesome case study in sixth grade that they had to do where they had to sort of build out a business. It was one of my favorite things I've ever seen. The schools give as homework, but, but, I think pretty young and making sure they understand money and the mechanics, and we've been talking a lot about economics during, during this, you know, how economics works.
[00:42:07]My daughter did a whole thing. She raised $2,000 recently for some of the race stuff here through sweatshirts. And, and so they, they all understand the basic mechanics of sort of earning spending profit margin, all those things. I actually think whatever business you go into, they're basic business skills that you need.
[00:42:28] I'm always fascinated at all my friends that are doctors running practices and stuff are never taught business stuff. And this is why let them fall back.
PH: [00:42:36] You can sell your own hour twice.
RG: [00:42:38] Yeah, well, they fall for these stock scams, but, but they're running medical practices and they literally never had a class on business before.
PH: [00:42:48] Amazing. And do you give your kids loans on money?
RG: [00:42:52] W yeah, we did before. It's been a little, COVID sort of changed all of that, but yeah, we, we just what, what, what they can do and not do in the routine and, and some of that stuff you know, part of it. Yeah. Each one actually had, we have the sort of basic requirements for being, you know, there are a lot of different schools of thoughts on this.
[00:43:13] I think we actually tried to not tie the allowance to like, like fee for services and, and some of this is worn. It's sort of an amalgamation. So there's just the allowance because we actually want them to, rather than my son goes out and he's going out with friends and lunch, we want them to learn how to budget. And it's almost more important that they get that and look, we're responsible for their food, but to say, look, you have $10 a week. And so you want to go out with your friends, like figure out how you want to spend that. So. In giving them the money and, and letting them control how they spend it and understanding it's a finite amount and sort of lesson one, there's some required dings that you need to do that we don't want to tie fee for services to like clean up your room, make your bed, put stuff away.
[00:43:57] Like that's just a responsibility for being,
PH: [00:44:00] those are chores. You shouldn't pay for those.
RG: [00:44:02] Those are just being part of the family
PH: [00:44:03] contribution for being part of
RG: [00:44:04] so the allowance is the allowance, there's the thing you just have to do. And then there's the free market stuff that we'll put out there. I mean, I. Part of the pandemic thing, I decided I was going to power wash my deck, which was about a seven or eight hour project. And I offered my son a hundred dollars for it. And he went out there and he did it for, you know, every day he got covered in mud every day. And, you know, got that. Like I, you know, if there's projects that I would pay someone else to do, I'll, I'll offer them at first Amman, you know, sell something on eBay.
[00:44:31] I try to, you know, I try to give them something where they can understand that effort can equal reward.
PH: [00:44:40] Would be cool if he scaled it and he hired his buddy for half the money
RG: [00:44:45] father, my daughter, my daughter about this, my daughter is actually, she's very entrepreneurial. She's very creative marketing oriented. And you know, I tried to convince her so people are always texting her about babysitting and she couldn't.
[00:44:55] I said, you know what a good business is. You have people that can backfill it for you. You tell them $10 an hour and you get a dollar an hour. And she, she just like, felt bad and I'm like, that's that's brokered like that, and then you're not babysitting you're placing babysitters. So I had this whole discussion with her on the economics. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So she, she, she, she is funny. She's, she's a very much a do-gooder and she, I think she felt guilty in those cases for, for wanting to take money from people that she wasn't doing the work.
PH: [00:45:24] I dunno. I mean, yeah. Especially artists. I mean, you have to, at some stage learn that it's okay to take money you know, that's
RG: [00:45:32] Scale, scale is a really good thing to learn. Yeah.
PH: [00:45:36] Do D can they spend their money however they want? So, I mean, obviously, so for instance, to tell you an example, Malik, Mohammed, he there is an allowance. Yeah. So if they get some money I'm not sure if I want to give my kids pocket money, because I think maybe it's that's charity, right?
[00:45:52] They can work not at five, but at 10, 12, 14, they can do something, whatever it is. And you can pay inflated prices, but they still, you know, they don't need charity in my eyes. And so that obviously, you know, if you go skiing, you pay to ski, but giving them money, money. So he gives an allowance for instance.
[00:46:12] And then They have to spend the money. That's the condition in exchange. So they have to spend the money in a certain way. So it's three way split, one split is a charity of their choosing, one split is to have to invest it in something Whatever, save it basically and learn about investing and, and the return of, of money and one split as they can spend it at their free discretion. I think that's really, that's a really good thought. Do you have something like that or do you just say, okay, well, you know, if your money runs out because you have to go to lunch three times, then, then you have no money left. That's your problem.
RG: [00:46:48] Again, each kid's a little different, I would love in theory to do something like that. We just haven't been as, as, as disciplined. Both the older ones have done a lot around charity. Cause that's more of a value of my, like my daughter decided to do this sweatshirt thing and, and donate the money to a charity. So I think that's always been, they see us doing that as a family. We actually. One of the things that we did as a family with our financial advisor and look, they got to understand the money, but, but we decided to make certain commitment to charity. And as part of that, we gave each of them a piece a good amount of money. And we were honest with them about, was to, to research and find a charity that they wanted to give it to, that they would get involved with. So each of them picked different things. So we make the charity thing. The spending is. They don't, they don't spend a lot, like, this is a lot of thing where it's personalized and again, we're struggling with the third one because he loves to spend he's he's my first one, my, you know, the cookie test, like the, did they give where when you wait?
[00:47:47] Yeah, you're waiting. Right. She would wait four years for three cookies and he would eat both cookies in five seconds. So same again, this is where it has to be different. Like, I don't. She is just inclined to save and not spend, and he will spend anything that he has in five minutes. So we we've had to work with some rules for him because they're just different
PH: [00:48:08] Just tell her if she becomes a social entrepreneur. So she can take $2 and give a friend nine and she gives one to the charity and she keeps one for herself that will work very nice with.
RG: [00:48:20] There's a very high chance she will become a social entrepreneur. She is very into social justice. Yeah.
PH: [00:48:26] Yeah. That's good. How do your kids perceive that whole black lives matter? And, and I mean, that's on top of Corona. Yeah, yeah. In the States, especially at the moment, how is it? Because they would be in that age right. They are very much active. And think a lot about that. And I, I pick up from you that, that they do think around these things a lot. How do they do? Respond to that situation at the moment.
RG: [00:48:49] Yeah. So it's interesting
PH: [00:48:50] and their friends.
RG: [00:48:51] We have a friend, who's a teacher and one's a doctor and a teacher, and they started this Monday learning series. When this started on zoom, where they'll teach something that's related to current events and all the families jump on. And so the one that we did that Monday on the race stuff was really interested. They played a video of a bunch of kids in the U S and they were all, they were black kids, probably from like eight to 12, talking about what their parents, what they had seen, what their parents had told them, how they told them to behave you know, to cross the street. And you can see that we've talked about it and the kids were really impacted.
[00:49:25] And I think you can almost see the dividing line of age of where, like the youngest kids. We're still pretty colorblind and, and just couldn't even understand how or why, like this stuff would happen because they're just, they don't even see the world. And then the older ones, you know, started to see this stuff, but we actually had some really good discussions across families. And I think they're very aware of policy and politics. They probably understand the parties and the different sides and the different viewpoints because of the divisiveness right now. And because of the, like, you know, as a parent, trying to explain some of the ugliness that our president says and the things that he says, it just, it, it, it provokes a lot of discussions.
[00:50:08] So I. I actually think their constructs on these things are much, first of all, they have, I think kids, these days have a much stronger sense of social justice. As it moves through generations and their understanding of the different things on this are much stronger than my wife and I were at that age.
PH: [00:50:26] Mm. And that's a powerful topic. I have two black children, the two daughters that we adopted are black and I don't really know how to deal with explaining to them that that color of your skin can have such a big impact. I mean, in South Africa it's a bit easier, but as you know, in Cape town, so there are many black people here and so they don't stand out so much, but you know, when we in Munich, sure there are people in Germany. So there are people who are. Darker skin, not so many stand out, really stand out and that's a whole different dynamic so that it would be very interesting they're now five. And as you say, the kids don't, they don't make a difference. You know, I read a book to them. And then there's some, a bunch of white kids in the, in the kids' book and they go, Oh, that's Maya, that's Lena, this is Max. And they will, it doesn't matter. Yeah.
RG: [00:51:19] I mean, also right now with LBTGQ plus and everything.
PH: [00:51:25] There's two more letters there. I can't remember them. Yeah. BQ, but T m Y. Yeah, so everything
RG: [00:51:34] but, but I, I, I, I think this is just, it's just so much more normal to them in terms of there's there's, you know, kids who are much early and openly, you know, expressing different sexual preferences, different genders. I, it is, you know, just the it's, so it's different. I mean, then the generation, two generations ago sort of what's normal and what's not normal. I think the, the, the, the normal these days is all sorts of different people in representations and otherwise, and I, I just think they're, they're just used to that. So it's, it's not, it doesn't really raise an eyebrow at all.
PH: [00:52:13] Yeah. And some of it is to me, and I'm not old. I'm 41. I, I, I read these terms. It's a good one. Yeah, no problem for me. No problem. But I'm not even on top of it. Like, I mean, there are, if you go on Instagram, there's a filter for gay pride and, and some other prides that after I don't, I can't even explain the the sexual preference and that, or I think, I mean, that's how you identify as agenda.
[00:52:40]I don't even couldn't even explain that, that it's, it's amazing because it's super inclusive, but that's something where our kids would teach us
RG: [00:52:51] think they're teaching a lot of their parents right now. I just heard about a discussion last night around it, just between the kid and that someone who was a couple that was sort of coming out and the kid was like, yeah, why, why do you care?
[00:53:04] Like, what's it just, it's just totally. Why does that even surprise you? It doesn't, it doesn't matter. It just kinda is what it is.
PH: [00:53:14] But do they mean, I mean, I can't, I only have a theoretical opinion on it because my kids are not in that age. And I don't speak to 12, 16 year olds about this, but like, do they actually mean it or do they actually just not like, do they mean that they are, do they actually understand that they're very understanding and being acting in an inclusive kind of manner? Or do they just not care like. Do you know what I mean?
RG: [00:53:43] Like, they're almost like cousins, I, in that I think there's an inclusive aspect, but like, you know, when you think about middle school and all the different stuff that goes on or otherwise just, I it's just, it's just another thing. I, I mean, I certainly, there are people that are less inclusive than that than others.
[00:54:02] I mean, you still have the, the cliques and the, this and the, you know, in and the out. But, but, but I, I think in general, I think they're just much more tolerant and they've grown up in a world that's much more diverse and it's just more of the norm. So some to some extent, all teenagers or whatever there's stuff they just don't care about. But I just think it's not, I don't know how to say, like it's not news to them. Right. That's, that's almost how I would, how I would say it.
PH: [00:54:32] Yeah. I mean, it has changed. I mean, look at how being successful in school in the past, you were a nerd knowledge, very desirable for kids to be successful . It's fine in the group, you know, you're not being bullied for being successful anymore. You know, you're not the nerd, you're very smart.
RG: [00:54:49] I mean, also, you know, for awhile it was, Oh, go to school, get good grades, follow the program now. I mean, now there's a lot of people questioning that conventional wisdom with all the debt we have here in college and unemployment, like, is that really the best thing for me to do is to spend all these years taking achievement tests, going to a school borrowing $200,000, not knowing what I want to be. I think there's just a lot of these norms are being reassessed.
PH: [00:55:14] But that culture is very problematic in any case. I mean, especially your country printing money, like there's no tomorrow you will affect us too
RG: [00:55:23] The achievement culture,
PH: [00:55:25] live in a cage. Yeah, cave and, and, and pick grass in 50 years, who's
[00:55:31] going to pay for it. You know, that's crazy.
RG: [00:55:33] The achievement culture problem is really important in our country because the cost of education is so much higher than everywhere else. Right. So it's, it's being funded by mortgaging your future, which is people just don't have to make these trade offs like the UK. Like you just go to college and it's 5,000 pounds a year. Like it's not a, it's not a big deal, you know, here, if it's $80,000 a year, like that has some real implications. If you're not able to pay for that.
PH: [00:56:02] Yeah. That's a lot of money compounded over five, six years easy. Yeah. Yeah. Germany's for free. Yeah. I mean you pay tax, but the taxes then, I mean, yeah, it's a couple of hundred euros, I think for like books or whatever programs, but the so principally universities for free at a very high kind of quality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Robert, what else is there? We still have time five minutes or so, but I kind of want you to share if there's stuff to share. If there's no stuff to share we'll wrap it up.
RG: [00:56:33] I'm good, but you know, I always find no need to make things longer. They don't need to be. Yeah.
PH: [00:56:39] Yeah. I think what was powerful, you know, that nugget of, of giving yourself permission to not having to do maybe what also the outside expectations are, but at the same time, not having to do what you're not good at and what you know, that you are not good at. It just says accepting weaknesses and doubling down on strength. That's a big takeaway for me. That's that's very very powerful.
RG: [00:57:04] I, I, if I look across my personal core values, I am in the best service of being a father when I'm able to lean into those core values with each of my kids. Yeah. Yeah.
PH: [00:57:17] Robert with that thank you very, very much. This was fun. Thanks. And some real nuggets there, and I hope after Corona, maybe I'll meet you somewhere at some EO event or something, and I'd be keen to connect and have a beer.
RG: [00:57:31] It may be awhile, but I'd love to